We had the privilege to invite former Executive Chairman of PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC), Singapore – Mr. Yeoh Oon Jin to share with our SMU Accounting Masters’ students on his exciting 38-year journey with the organisation. In this insightful conversion moderated by Programme Director, Dr. Wang Jiwei - Mr. Yeoh also gave our students extremely valuable tips on how professionals can continuously improve themselves and remain top of their game.
Mr. Oon Jin, you have an impressive resume with many great achievements. Can you share how you got to where you are today?
I was born in Malaysia, and my dad moved around quite a bit, so I studied in Penang, Malacca, Ipoh, and KL. I then went to the UK to do my A levels and after that, I went to Birmingham University and did my accounting there. I wanted to do my Chartered Accountancy Professional Exam, so I proceeded to join PwC, Birmingham. I came back to Singapore in 1986 and joined PwC and to me, it was a great organisation as I was given many opportunities to learn and develop. Many people have asked me how I stayed in the same organisation for over 30 years. I think that if you join the right organisation and they provide you with opportunities to grow and they train and develop you well – why join another place when you do not know what the opportunities there are. So, I chose to stay with PwC and fortunately, was able to progress all the way to Executive Chairman until my retirement in July 2021.
Many people have also asked about the secret to my success, and I shared this in a recent Business Times interview about my five As.
- Ambition – Have the right ambition and goals. Set ambitious goals and get yourself to focus on developing your career on the right path. Being ambitious in developing myself was very important.
- Attitude – I’ve always been a glass-half-full kind of person. Being positive helps to frame the mindset of wanting to do better.
- Anticipation – Look ahead to understand the trends. The world is changing right before us but if you can anticipate some of the changes, that will tremendously help your career development in understanding and preparing for those changes. That's also true for organizations, organizations that succeed are those that can anticipate what is going to come and be first off the mark in terms of responding to those changes.
- Adapt – The world is everchanging and so uncertain, so one needs to have the change agility to be able to adapt. In my growing up years because I moved around so much, I learned to be agile, to adapt to new environments, and to be resilient. I think in a career, you need to have that resilience and agility so that you can progress far.
- Alignment - Make sure that everything you do is aligned with what you set yourself out to be. And if you are focused on wanting to achieve something, then you align everything that you do to make sure that you achieve that goal.
Under your leadership, PwC has developed itself as a great place to work. Can you share your inside story and your secrets in managing PwC?
Let me highlight the 5 critical factors that helped PwC be successful.
- People
As PwC is a professional services firm, our only real asset is our people, and if you have the right quality of people - you will succeed. And to me recruiting the best of the brightest and training and developing them so that they can develop their full potential is really critical, so people are the number one ingredient.
- Relentless focus on quality
We operate in a regulated industry and reputation is absolutely critical for us. It is really important that we stay focused on delivering quality services and training our people so that they can achieve those two key quality objectives. We do not allow anything else to override the quality objectives. If you look back in history, PwC has always kept clear of what we call troublesome practice issues and that is because our very top focus is driving quality in all that we do.
- Anticipation
The third important area goes back to what I said about anticipating, it is about transforming the firm ahead of when the environment forces us to transform. We have been on our digital journey, our transformation in terms of bringing technology into the firm, changing the way we work, and moving to a new office of the future. It is really about preparing ourselves for what is to come and transforming the firm before we get disrupted. And so that anticipation of what is around the corner is a key element of helping us to remain successful for so long.
- Partnership Ethos
The fourth important area for our success is the partnership ethos that we have. If you look at the big four accounting firms, some of them have moved to become much more corporate. Whereas in PwC, we have chosen to keep our partnership ethos. Each of our 150 partners is an entrepreneur and they make a lot of decisions, and therefore are able to respond to the marketplace as it develops. This has helped us become a much more successful firm.
There is no doubt that there are downsides to a partnership structure, it takes a longer time to get decisions taken and so forth, so we have modified our partnership structure to allow some level of autonomy given to the leadership team, but it is still primarily a partnership structure as opposed to a corporate structure.
- Operating as one firm
Another key element is about being able to drive the firm thinking and operating as one firm. In a complex organization like PwC, there are many different lines of service and departments and so forth, and the reality is that business issues are now very complex, and therefore to be able to find solutions for our clients, it is really important that we bring the best of PwC to solve those important issues of our clients.
During my tenure as Executive Chairman, I spent a lot of time and effort to try and bring all the partners together - the people, the managers, and the directors together. So that they are comfortable to go out and help our clients solve their important problems as one team, as one PwC. And more so now, solutions that are needed out there, really require a multidisciplinary approach, and therefore having that one firm ethos is quite critical as well.
One of the challenges we face in academics is finding some direct measurement in audit quality. One of the core services offered by PwC is auditing, but at the same time, PwC also offers some other advisor deals and other services under the same firm. The value of independent auditing assurance is the independence. How does PwC and other auditing professionals maintain independence, particularly if you see a conflict of interest between the auditing services and the consulting advisory services?
Independence and conflict of interest is a complex topic, the easiest solution would be to just separate the firm and have an audit-only firm and then have another firm that does everything else. It has happened before, but we ask ourselves if that is the right solution.
Would bright young students from SMU want to join an audit-only firm? It is not as attractive as the multi-disciplinary firm which we are today. The first hurdle you have to cross is, can you attract the best and the brightest? You may get employees, but they are not the quality employees that you need.
The second concern is that audit and assurance is actually a mature industry, there are only that many companies in Singapore that need audit. A very fundamental business model of PwC as well as the other accounting firms is all about growth and being able to attract and develop talent and allowing them to grow and develop. But if you are an industry that is mature that has got 1% or 2% growth a year, is that really a viable industry?
And the third concern is that businesses are becoming so complex now, they have adopted technology that is so complicated such as cloud computing, AI, or crypto. Can a general auditor audit these companies? Are they able to fair value some of these complex instruments that businesses are now getting involved with?
The leadership team at PwC on a global level has explored this and we all concluded that we need to be a multi-disciplinary firm in order to play our audit role well. But what it means is that we have to be clear where we draw the line between permissible activities and non-permissible activities. Over time, whether it's PCAOB, Sarbanes-Oxley Act, or even our local regulators, they have made it quite clear where the boundaries are in terms of the independence rules. And because of that, we have coined this term called C1 and C2. C1 is Channel 1 which refers to audit clients and everything else is a C2 client, which is a non-audit client. When the regulators come to review us, they check to make sure that we comply with those rules very religiously. And therefore, we have been able to avoid the complications that you have mentioned.
That is very reassuring to hear. I am going to take a question from the audience. This is from Saurabh who asked what the anticipation was before Covid started and what the world will look like in 10 years. Some industries got expedited in terms of anticipation and some of them actually took a back seat such as the hotel and travel industry. So now if we take Covid out and after two years of Covid, what is the new anticipation for the Big Four that might happen in the world?
I would say that the trend is towards a digital and technology-driven world. We could foresee that before Covid came and that is why we embarked on going to cloud and digitizing our front and back office. What Covid has done is that it has accelerated it such that if you are not digitized now, you are in trouble.
And so that trend of going digital is going to continue, and it has also brought about more related developments and the most critical development is really on data because people now begin to realize that digital technology is not the end game, the end game is actually the data.
The problem we have is that we have too much data and they do not talk to each other, they are not accurate and so a lot of work is going into how you can better manage the data that we are collecting every second. But more than that, how to protect the data too. The whole area of data privacy, data protection, cyber is a new world of business out there, and the number of investments we are putting into cyber and data privacy is just not enough because we cannot find the people.
If you are asking about other trends, I would see the world getting a lot smaller because of digital. The world is now sitting virtually and has shrunk in its barriers and now you even have digital banks operating everywhere.
Another development that has also come about through Covid is the focus on climate change, ESG, and sustainability. And if I am a betting person, I think that part of PwC would soon be as big as audit. Because not only do people need to know how to measure carbon emissions, the framework, and standards, you need to be able to report it, and then you need to be able to get testation over it.
Since we are on the topic of ESG, we have another question from Jia Hwang regarding climate change, the reporting of sustainability, and ESG - you mentioned that it will be as big as audit at PwC, but what are your thoughts on how that actually adds value to the stakeholders because I understand that there are multiple standards but there is no clear standard to follow, just like how for audit there are two which are IFRS and GAAP. What do you think the future of sustainability reporting would be like, would it be combined together or how would you standardise it?
I think the current environment is a complete mess because there are so many different frameworks and standards, and nobody really knows which one to follow. But there is some hope because, in the same way IFRS is becoming the dominant accounting standard adopted by most countries around the world, IASB is now going to be setting up what they call ISSB - International Sustainability Standards Board. And my hope is that ISSB by next year will soon be issuing sustainability standards in the same way IASB issues IFRS standards.
And fingers crossed it gets adopted by most countries around the world, and they will get to see more consistency in the reporting of climate change, carbon emissions and so forth, and then you can then you have compatibility between companies because at the moment, now everybody can choose to report the way they want to, and you are unable to tell who is good and who is not so good and it is very challenging.
Your point about whether it is relevant or if it adds value - I think if you asked that question five years ago, most people would say “My chief required me to put some things in, but I do not believe in it.” But if you follow what is happening now in Europe, the US, and other parts of the world, investors are basically saying that if you do not tell me what you are doing with regards to sustainability and climate change, I will not put my money with you. BlackRock, the world's largest investor has really made it clear that sustainability, climate change, and carbon reporting will be key elements when they make investment decisions.
As far as climate change and sustainability are concerned, that is where I feel that we are at the tipping point - where companies now have come to the realisation that they need to be able to not only measure but report and change the business processes so that they can be green. And that has become a strategic business imperative, not a nice one to have.
And the boards that I sit on, whether it's Singapore Airlines, Singapore Exchange, or Singapore Press Holdings, in terms of our discussions, many have made it clear that we expect management to do the right thing by reducing carbon emissions and so forth.
I fully agree with you, I think the mindset of companies is changing and they can start to see the value of long-term ESG investment. I will now move to the next section which is more about your advice on career development for our students. There are a couple of questions very pertinent to our students that ask about what some of the career paths are that you expect from an accounting graduate specifically joining PwC and ultimately, what would your advice be if they want to pursue the partnership paths as well.
PwC Singapore brings in about 250 graduates each year across the five universities locally, plus overseas but predominantly from the local universities. But above that 250 we bring in; we also bring in about 150 of what we call midstream experienced hires - people with a few years of experience. Whether they are from the profession or the industry, we have a very structured program that we put them through so that we develop them to their full potential.
When you join PwC as a fresh graduate, it usually takes about five years or thereabouts to become a manager. You get promoted each year as you progress, and it usually takes about 10 years or so to become a director. From there you aim for partnership which most people will get to become a partner if they have the right skillsets and attributes, which usually takes around 12 years or so to become a partner.
When I took over as the Executive Chairman of PwC Singapore, I asked the HR department to increase our non-accounting graduates as I am a strong believer in diversity and bringing different skillsets into PwC. A lot of our recruits that are non-accountants come in as experienced hires, and they can come from all kinds of backgrounds and university qualifications. I think we are actually that much better off having that diversity but I will say that whether you are an accounting or non-accounting graduate, the opportunity is there to join PwC. The range of services that we provide is so broad that quite often, no matter what kind of background you come from, we can find a home for you.
In terms of skills, other than your academic domain, having skills in digital technology and data that is definitely valuable for the future. In terms of personality attributes, I think we generally look for people with good people and communication skills, because we work as a team, we work with clients, so it is crucial that you have those skills. SMU students are very good at communication and people skills, so you are up there.
You need an open mindset because we want you to learn, embrace new technology, we want you to be inquisitive and ask questions. At the same time, it is also important because we provide professional services, you cannot be at 30,000 feet all the time, you need to be down at the ground, you need to be detailed and meticulous in the work that you do.
And then, lastly, I think we value teamwork. As I say, our philosophy is about bringing the best of PwC to our clients and that requires teamwork. We will never go to a client solo; it is always a team that goes to serve our clients, so teamwork is really, really important.
Thank you that's very insightful. All the skills that Mr. Oon Jin mentioned earlier, you can get from SMU. You can learn the best of the domain from SMU, you can learn data analytics from SMU, you can learn communication skills from SMU – our students are known for this. We also always push our students to do group projects, I think they probably suffer a little bit along the way, but they get long-term returns from it. Let’s get to the last part of this talk which is to understand your visualisation of PwC – how would you want to grow PwC in 10 or 20-years’ time?
Personally, I think that the accountancy and professional services firms have plenty of opportunities. They are growing sideways, they are broadening the services that they provide way beyond audit and tax, and, if you asked me what PwC would look like 10 years down the road, I think audit and tax will be a relatively smaller part of the firm than what it was when I joined PwC.
To me, the success of PwC is where PwC is seen to be a truly multi-disciplinary professional services firm offering a wide range of services to help our clients solve their complex problems because those complex problems require skillsets that go way beyond audit and tax.
And I can envisage the firm to continue to grow in the next 5, 10, 20 years, and the kind of services that we can provide will be about data, ESG, sustainability, cyber tech consulting, strategy consulting, and all kinds of buzzwords that you hear now. These are the kinds of things that PwC will have to get involved and be relevant for the future and that is where the opportunities lie.
And that goes back to the point I said about anticipating what is going to come and getting yourself ready when the time comes, you are ahead of the game and that helps you in your development of the career.
I fully agree with you. In the past few years, we have received a lot of questions from students who are looking at the future of professional services. A lot of people are talking about being replaced by machines, but we always try to assure the students that this will not happen because we see great opportunities for our professional services. I believe professional services are going to continue to grow and the services we are going to provide in the future will be very different from what we are doing now. It seems that PwC and other Big Four firms are moving towards a one-stop service firm. I don't know whether this would be a good strategy, but it seems this is a trend for professional services.
I know that now you are very busy with community services and being an independent director, but maybe you can share more about your plans for your retirement.
One recently retired partner gave me some very good advice and I am trying to follow that advice which is what he called the one-third, one-third, one-third formula.
You must try to allocate one-third of your time to do the work that stimulates your mind, meaning that you know you have accumulated all this experience and knowledge and how do you apply that. And to me that is about getting on to interesting companies’ boards, engaging in strategic discussions, understanding their business, and helping them to grow and develop and become even more successful.
I joined the boards of Singapore Airlines, Singapore Press Holdings, Singapore Exchange, and I have also recently joined two other boards - one is SingHealth because I’m getting older, and I need to make sure I know some doctors. And then I have also joined a digital bank because I think the digital bank is really about the future, you know you're starting from zero base and you're trying to develop something and to me, that's very interesting.
The other one-third is to do things that you are passionate about. Things that you really want to do to give back to society. So that for me is about the charities that I serve on. Lien Foundation to me has been incredibly illuminating and interesting, the Kidney Dialysis Foundation, the Singapore Land Authority where I am Chairman, and lastly the Singapore Business Federation (SBF), where we represent all the businesses in Singapore. The SBF acts as a liaison between the businesses and the government and gives a lot of feedback to the government on issues that businesses face, especially during Covid and trying to get the government to change some of the policies so that they can help businesses be more successful in Singapore.
The last one-third is that what I would like to do for myself. My biggest want is to travel and Covid has put a real bummer to my travel plans. So, I ended up doing a lot more work in my first one-third which is serving on the boards, but there is hope because Vaccinated Travel Lanes have come, and I have already booked myself to go to London at the end of this year. I am looking forward to my first overseas trip since retirement.
Do you have any more advice for our young students and future professionals?
I think that starting your career with a professional services firm is the best starting point for any graduate, you learn so much about businesses across all sectors and industries. And after that you can decide what you want to do, whether you want to go into the industry, whether you want to stay in the profession to become a partner, whether you want to move on to doing something else.
But you have a solid foundation of understanding businesses, understanding controls, and processes, and also the other soft skills like people skills, teamwork, and managing people. All those skills are highly relevant for whatever career you want to pursue. I think very few organisations can give you that kind of development and learning and that is why I never regretted my decision to join PwC as a first step in my career. It is just that I chose to stay on at PwC, but others may choose to move on.
That is great advice. PwC has recruited a lot of SMU students in particular from the School of Accountancy for both undergraduate and postgraduate and I really appreciate that. Mr. Oon Jin has always been the poster boy for our MPA programme. Thank you so much Mr. Oon Jin for your support to the school and the programme. Thank you for your excellent sharing and time with us today.
